A discussion on the Fatima miracle

Among the few email conversations I happened to have with Christians in reply to my web pages criticizing Christianity, one of the debaters has put forward the Fatima miracles. His messages (summer 2010) contained a incredible number of misspellings (in French, as he is not native French), only one which will be reproduced in the below English translation (a bit shortened because it was quite long) (his messages in blue, mine in black):

Hello I read a little your site. No doubt you are intelligent with a great logic, considering your math abilities, but (there is a but) your intelligence leaves me unsatisfied, someone intelligent should understand something: for all thing there exists, matter and energy, there must be a beginning, and for a creation to happen there needs a creator that created everything. So yes we may think there is one or more divine entities or a creator god, one thing is sure we are not a fruit of chance, existence is not a chance. You see it suffices to be logical, no need to write pages and pages to make an analysis.
If god exists, which religion should we believe this is a good question lol
As for me I advise you to wonder about the catholic religion and all its mysteries that science could never prove, people with stigmata, yes yes it really exists and nowadays some exist (I advise you to wonder about padre pio)
Statuses of the Lady crying, you bet scientists looked for the trick without finding it, then the appearances of our Lady, especially of Fatima in Portugal, with this famous miracle on October 13, 1917 in front of over 70,000 people that all witness the same thing, pictures and articles exist of this event.
And miraculous healings in Lourdes exist, there were 65 acknowledged, without mentioning those that did not ask to be acknowledged. Just a big faith is needed to have a miracle.
I know well there is much injustice, but don't forget the devil exists, exorcist priests really exist, they don't work for nothing, evil that is man who created it with the help of the devil, not god, god loves us and lets us free to do what we like, he just asks us to believe and trust him

in the other life there will be a justice for all, as our life on earth is a mere trial to be worthy of entering god's kingdom heaven hell, but to enter heaven one must be cleaned of all sins, this is why there is purgatory to get clean of our crap, so some spend there minutes and others centuries

God is not happy of us, this is sure someday he will make us feel his anger, also if we notice well the percentage of natural disasters increases from year to year and for this there is a text called Revelation by John, we are at the door of this event

it suffices to study the Lady's appearances of Fatima, Garabandal, Akita, to understand that until 1 or 2 3 4 5 years we are at the dawn of a great event.

this is pure and hard logic, if there is one above, he will say stop sometime for our crap abortion war prostitution homoxexuality, and moreover nobody believes anything anymore, and everybody fucks with everybody we do all the opposite of what he wants

First you contradict yourself, considering me both intelligent and stupid. Where is your pure and hard logic there ?

You think I did not consider those things ? seriously ?
Thus what do you claim to bring me ?
Do you really think you know better than me what is "pure and hard logic" and which things are so ?
See texts I wrote about Christian logic [not translated yet] and about miracles
Thanks for no more bothering me with ridiculous claims to teach me how to think with such childish lessons.

Pure and hard logic is simply what we manage to understand, and when we can't anymore, then it becomes mystery
I am intelligent, surely less than you in some fields but I had mark 19 in math on my scientific Bachelor degree

Is the universe definite or indefinite ? we know that the big bang theory is no more a theory it is the explanation of the creation of the universe, we know with present technology that the universe is expanding so it is getting bigger so it is definite.
Is the time that passes definite or indefinite ? with big bang theory we know there was a beginning at t=0 and the end of this time scale is our present so yes the time scale is definite it started at the creation and ends at the present time.
I invite you to reply one question
Is existence an accident ? (the existence of our world in 4 dimensions, space with 3 dimensions and time with 1 dimension)
Answer me by yes or no with only about 10 lines
But I don't take you for stupid, but I did not like what you tell about religion, you are mocking religion
Religion is a hope for some, and for others a lie, I have my convictions, this is why I ask you to answer whether existence is an accident yes or no

As for me I cannot prove you this, I lost my mother and at that very time I made a dream while I did not expect her death. For me there is indeed something that cannot be explained, but I'm sure, there does exist something beyond, thus science has limits, and can never explain everything. I'd be happy to confront my ideas with you, so is existence an accident ?
Truth cannot be chosen, it forces itself, and when one refuses to believe it one becomes unbeliever even if one is intelligent.

I am not the one mocking religion. It is religion that is somehow ridiculous. Why should I be guilty to have found the truth on the troubles of something (should I recall you) I previously joined ?
If religion is ridiculous, is it my fault ?
If I mock religion (or Christians), then I mock myself, as I was Christian before. Thus things are more subtle.
What is your goal ? To force your truth to me ? Can you revise your positions ? I am not mocking. I just care for the truth. Thus I must develop explanations that religions are false. Do you call this mocking ? Can you consider that you may be wrong and that religions may indeed be wrong ? or is it an impossibility of the discourse ?
I can't consider to be wrong either. But it is a matter of truth, not of moral value of mocking or not mocking.

Sorry but if we start with this question just for finally reaching the truth of Catholicism, we can't get through in less than 10,000 messages, and I have no time. Anyway the question "is existence an accident" is very fuzzy and undefined. We can't seriously specify the question in less than a few pages, not to mention the try to answer. But it does not matter, such a "question" and similar ones are but a game of sophisms by which, from confusion to confusion, you manage to convince yourself of the truth of your religion, and to not understand how it is possible to think otherwise. It's not serious. You should first learn to really think, but I cannot help you. I have enough troubles

[next message:]

Well OK.

If you insist to talk and you think you know the subject of religion better than I, then I accept to talk.
But, let's be logical : I'll be the one asking questions, and you'll have to answer. Are you ready ?

I'm ready.
I only defend the catholic religion, which is a religion of love hope and peace even if in the past this religion was ill represented by its leaders.
so of course I'm ready to answer your questions but I can't promise to answer at once. If you are not in hurry you can ask questions and I'll be happy to answer them as accurately as possible.

So here are some questions.
As I understand you, you believe in the existence of hell:
Is the existence of hell the fruit of an accident, or of a creation ?
If hell is the fruit of a creation, who is its creator ? for which purpose ?

Are there people who will be in hell eternally ? for which sins ?
Or if it is by choice, is it a true choice ? Can one really choose hell ? If hell is eternal (or if hell or purgatory is very long), would not this question of the origin of hell, be worth consideration independently of our life, which is comparably unsignificant ?

If God exists, which religion should trisomics believe ?

Which religion did God want humans 10,000 ago to believe ? If the answer "none" was then acceptable for the will of God, why is it no more so now ? Is it by chance ? Logically, if all men are similar, the fact that I am myself and you are yourself, that prehistorical humans were prehistorical, that Muslims are Muslims and atheists are atheists, is that all a fruit of chance ?
If the abortion of trisomics is a murder, why are they still so much different from other men that God does not require them to have a Catholic faith ?

What about animals (apes, dolphins...), does God require them to have faith ? Why should one make a fundamental difference for this between humans and animals ? As you accept the big bang, do you accept evolution, where humans progressively evolve from the same ancestors as animals ? Don't animals also have a soul and a life after death ? then why would not they also need to have faith ?

Imagine someone born in a Muslim country, nobody preached him the gospel, but only the Koran. He thinks: it is not by chance that I am taught the Kuran. And modern science was written in the Koran (yes, I heard some Muslims claim this with no doubt that Kuran is proved by science). This should not be an accident either.
Where are the mistakes here ? As there are miracles in many religions (link above), why consider this as a proof for Catholicism and not of other religions or divisions of Christianity (such as Evangelicals and Pentecostals that witness so many miracles) ?

If there was the Galileo trial and the death penalty for Giordano Bruno by the Church, is it a fruit of chance ?
If the strongest opposition to the scientific discoveries on the origins of the world are the Christian churches, including the Catholic Church before 1961, and the main motivation to the opponents of evolution (or: to the big bang theory, and the resulting age of the universe) still nowadays (quite powerful in the USA), is Christian faith and the Bible, by people who sincerely claim to know Jesus personally, is it a matter of accident ?

Is it an accident if Muslims are Muslims, if Buddhists are Buddhists and if atheists are atheists, or is it the fruit of a higher will, and which one ?
If it is the fruit of everyone's human will : can men have the deliberate will to lead themselves to mistake, even while they are deeply sincerely and devoutly searching for God ? Is God unable to reveal the truth to anyone seeks it sincerely ? or do people who follow other religions, not sincerely seek the truth ?

How can one religion be more true than another ? Is God describable by stories, icons or rituals, so that some may be more similar to God than others ?
If faith is a means for the service of the end that is to have a miracle, then would miracles be an end in themselves ? For a handicapped person, I understand a miracle of healing be an aim (among other possibilities), but for healthy people, why should they be bothered to oblige themselves to give themselves a means (faith) to seek an end (a miracle) that not only anyway (according to catholic statistics themselves) hardly bring anything (except, some very bloody stigmata all life long, is that your dream ?) but is as likely to happen as a gain at lotto ?
Otherwise, why did you write "we just need to have a great faith to have a miracle" ? Did this remark occur to your mind by accident ?

You wrote about the big bang, that the end of time is now. Science does definitely not say this, but rather that the universe will keep existing without limits (progressively degrading along billions of years). Where do you get that from ? from the bible just like young-earth creationists who deny the big bang ?

If the purpose of miracles is to generate faith, and if the purpose of faith is to generate miracles, then what is the purpose of both ?

Was the existence of Neanderthals or Erectus a fruit of chance ? Did their life (that had no descent) have a sense ? Did it have as much or less sense than ours, and why ? Is it by chance ?
What religion did God want them to believe ?
Is the existence of mosquitoes an accident, or did God create them, for what purpose ?

Good evening, I hope you are doing well. I read your messages, let me time for thinking please, no problem I'll answer

Were Neanderthals sinners ? Did the Son of God sacrifice for them ?

Was the Original Sin a historical event ? Is it a new specificity of humans as compared with the animals they descend from ? In other words, are humans worse in this sense than animals, or similar, or better ?
Is there life and civilizations elsewhere in the universe ? Are they without sin, or did the Son of God also die for them ? Did He sacrifice only once on only one planet, or on several ? If on only one, was it chosen by chance ?
If the Son of God was sacrificed on only one planet but not ours (and that here the Gospel story was a mere fruit of a human error and accident), would the foundations of theology be affected (less true) and our relation with God (notice of any difference) ?

To complete the previous question on miracles:
Stigmata and the crying Lady, that is funny but what is it for ?
"science could not prove" miracles: I don't get the sense of this remark, what was the point ?
And if prophets could not announce scientific and technological discoveries ?

About the Fatima miracle, I just read Wikipedia, that mentions the UFO hypothesis, that seems an interesting clue for it, what do you think ?

How can a religion that brings its followers to stigmatize homosexuals, by putting homosexuality in the same list of the worst evils of mankind as (I quote your first message) "abortion war prostitution", while:

- sexual orientation is not chosen (but fixed by nature), and
- homosexuality is one of the very few non-tragical limits to the main plague that destroys the Earth (overpopulation),

come without shame or hesitation, to describe itself as "a religion of love hope and peace" (not mentioning its "humility") and then be surprised (find it wrong) that people go away from its teachings ?

After what criteria shall we be judged :

1) Our faith in God (religious orientation, prayers...)
2) The purity of our intentions (heart...)
3) The effective consequences of our actions on others
4) Still something else, or a combination of the above to be specified

Is your answer to this question fully satisfying, worthy of being called divine justice, deserving worship ?
If you had to decide yourself the principles of judgement, what would be your option ? Are we allowed to ask ourself the question ?

Is a prayer for someone a good action ?
Is the goal of this good action, to have the wished events accomplished ?
If this accomplishment is a goal in itself, and if it is just up to God to make it happen, then why does God not make it without prayer ? Does He not know what is good to make, or can He not make it ?

Did you already know about the circumstances of the deaths of Hypatia and Alan Turing ? Once you know, how do you analyze the responsibilities ?

Is it by chance that the earthquake of 2007 in Pisco, Peru, happened during Assumption so that about 200 people died under the collapse of the cathedral ?

Of the following 2 events, which one is the most important :

(Of all these questions he only answered the last one:)

The most important event was the Fatima miracle, announced 90 days in advance, by the Lady herself, knowing that the Lady had given very clear indications and asked that the 3rd part of the message would be disclosed in 1960, it could not be clearer, I think 70,000 people attended this famous miracle, all people remained scotched to this very symbolic vision believe me and this event is of catholic confession and was announced by the Lady herself 90 days in advance and the Lady did not lie and kept her promises.

But we poor humans did not do what she asked, poor Lady that intercedes in the whole world so that we behave in a more reasonable way, it's not much but we are too rotten and too stupid for being better. The second world war happened with this massacre for the Jews, it was not enough, then came the cold war that generated the war between capitalism and communism that generated many revolutions in countries with the rise of dictators, conflicts between peoples happened, capitalism came to exploit the black gold (oil) and did not hesitate to provide weapons to some people to get this black gold, the Iraq war according to you is it by chance? 2 planes that smash, 3 towers fall, and the most surprising it falls nearly at the speed of free fall without any mechanical resistance, is it terrorists that made it or is it a conspiracy, or maybe both ? but one thing is sure, as events happened the twin towers should never have collapsed nearly at the speed of free fall

these towers were built with metallic structures, it was a spider net, and at that time engineers did not hesitate to use very high security coefficients in their buildings
where are the scientists who made so many years of study to prove all this, it's impossible that the twin towers collapse like this and in so little time.

So yes one should not complain that the earth quakes and there are catastrophes today, and if you notice well there are more and more and it increases, the beginning of year 2010 was bloody but that is due to the decay of man, the Fatima events are the witness that the good god has warned us and we did not care, I remind you in the bible there was the flood with Noah, nobody can know the time when it happened, but maybe all beliefs were born from that event, it is a theory to not neglect

So if god punished us a first time, maybe he can do it again but did the Noah arch exist, it seems a huge wreck of wood was discovered in ice at 4,000 meters of altitude in turkey in April 2010 is it true or false I don't know.

Never mind for the poor people that die of natural disaster, god will know how to reward those who died in martyrs and will offer them a place of choice in his kingdom, they will have their price whatever the creeds these poor people had, as god is the god of everybody even atheists Jews Muslims Christians Buddhists, we are all his children, and he only asks to be loved like a father, it is a bit normal no ? and we deny him, we offend him.
Science and religion are not incompatible, on the contrary they can be associated
Science does not do miracles, God does
Science consists in understanding the physics and biology mechanisms, but it will never prove the Fatima miracle
That's all

Are all miracles from God ? How to know if a miracle is from God ?

Of course all miracles are from God
Even if for example, Padre Pio made miracles, he did not make miracles, he asked god to make a grace to get miracles
Then it's true there are healers, magnetizers, that heal people miraculously, but the guaranteed to be healed is never 100% , but it's because god allows it that there are miracles.
Healing someone miraculously can only come from God.

For the stigmatized people, the phenomenon of stigmatization can be considered as a miracle or a grace, we should take care, it can come from the devil or from god
An example, someone has stigmata and is still alive, he is called Giorgio Buongiovanni, but this person so-called stigmatized, if stigmata are real it cannot come from god; why roughly, if he received stigmata, his heart is too proud I heard him speak in videos; and he is not in conformity to the catholic church.

One more possibly interesting question : If the Fatima miracle was a more important event than the collapse of the Pisco Cathedral during Assumption, is this the reason why the Lady came to announce in advance the former but not the latter ?

To add one last question, that can be addressed to any Christian reading this:
If you cannot answer these questions, but have a relationship with God, can you ask Him to provide you the answers ? If you can't, it means you have no clue about God and no communication with Him. So you don't know Him. In this case can you please have the decency to, once for all, stop speaking to anybody about God pretending you know Him ? Remember the commandment: "Do not take the name of the Lord in vain". But despite this commandment, Christians continuously take the name of God in vain : whenever they speak about Him, this is always vain anyway because it is their mere arbitrary desire or stupid human-erring illusion to believe that they met Him, that He would have sent His son on Earth two millennia ago, and that the Bible would have anything to do with Him; God himself never supported such claims.

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